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Title: Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
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SunshineMeadows
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(Date Posted:06/08/2011 7:21 AM)
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Compared to some other people here on Ouch Too I am a comparitive newbie when it comes to knowing about benefits. Lately the government seems to have been encouraging the newspapers and mass media in their assertion that DWP stats are showing that 75% of people sick and disabled can work. However I just came across this see below.

Does this mean that the government have already made a prediction for what is going to happen when people on IB get reassesses and they know the articles appearing in papers like the Daily Mail are wrong.

~confused~

Results

DWP estimate that about 23% of people reassessed will be found fit for work. Out of those, they estimate that:

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Offworld
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RE:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 7:27 AM)

>>>> ..... and they know the articles appearing in papers like the Daily Mail are wrong. <<<<

Afaics, they don't just know the articles are wrong -- they supply them in the form of  press-release readymix concentrate (complete with indignantly resolute Ministerial quotes) .... all any paper need do is add a few adjectives.
 
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SunshineMeadows
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 7:32 AM)

'all any paper need do is add a few adjectives. '

I think the Guardian at least try to give a rounded picture and are a lot less inclined to accept spoon feeding of skewed figures.

I am wondering where Newcastle City Council got that information because it is the first I have seen of more realistic figures.
 
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ElfieOuch
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 8:16 AM)

 I just found this little gem in the Harrington report:

"Although a greater proportion of new claims are being disallowed the benefit compared with previous benefits, the overall number of people claiming incapacity benefits has remained relatively steady since the introduction of ESA in October 2008."

So once all the appeals are factored in, the figures show that there are the same amount of people entitled to some kind of incapacity benefit as there have always been...
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stalwart
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Reply To SunshineMeadows
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 9:00 AM)

Reply to SunshineMeadows (06/08/2011 2:

Results

DWP estimate that about 23% of people reassessed will be found fit for work. Out of those, they estimate that:


Which actually means...of the total amount assessed....


11.5% will move to jobseekers

4.6% will move to another allowance

6.9% will leave benifits

So only 11.5 still claiming or 18.4 in total  could be reclassified as fit for work



Where does the 75% come from????




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Peter_aka_Sociable
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 10:12 AM)

The thing to remember with the presentation of any statistics is that it is often just like the telling of the story of the missing £ or $ depending on which version you read of the missing coin riddle in action.

http://money.wikinut.com/the-missing-pound-riddle/1ynsr7y2/

The original 75% figure used in the media, i.e. only about 25% of new claimants got/get ESA, came about because for all the reasons we know some simply get better during the assessment phase or leave the figures for other reasons. So it would actually be far fairer to say that the proportion of justified claims is actually far higher than 25% but closer to 33% - 40% once that and successful appeals has been allowed for in the figures.

We all know there is also the further slight of hand used in how appeals are generally not mentioned, let alone factored in, and also the misrepresentation of an award of work related ESA meaning the claimants are "fit for work" is achieved - hence the infamous "Only 1 in 14 actually have valid claims" headlines of a few weeks back.

What this new statistic shows, and yes they will have made some educated guesses (projections based on statistical analysis) of sample populations to predict the likely results of the changeover from IB to ESA over the next three years, is that roughly 75% of exisiting IB claimants will actually eventually be found to have valid claims and will be placed in either the Support or Work Related groups as appropriate and not the lower 25% predicted by the media hype about IB/ESA right now.

This relatively higher percentage of 75 may "seem" surprising, given all the hoo har in the media about us all being frauds and scroungers, but isn't actually that surprising at all, not least given the tougher PCA and Atos involvement has been increasingly culling the easy targets from the IB claimant base over the last few years by way of periodic reviews already.

The reality is that 75% of surviving IB claimants who go through the transition to ESA from now will remain on illness/incapacity related benefits and of those who do not half of them will still remain on benefits just not illness/incapacity related benefits.

The reality being that, even with the far harsher WCA rather than PCA being applied by a compliant Atos, they will still only be able to find about 1 in 10 claimants "fit for work" and less than 1 in 10 of them will have been found to have been "fiddling" in the past i.e. the known half to one percent of fraud already known to exist within the system.

The presentation of statitics is always smoke and mirrors, especially in their use in the media, and is all about creating perceptions rather than reality and not only will the claimants not go away the supposed savings of the latest "being tough on claimants" image being promoted by the Coalition will eventually disappear in a puff of the smoke in the Mirror and other tabloids as fast at the missing coins in the original riddle I linked to above. :)

But in the meantime Governement, most MP's, Atos and the DWP will all have been "seen" to be doing their job and earning their keep and so deflecting the nation from their individual and collective lack of professionalism let alone the compassion and common decency we should be expecting from them instead of a large stick.

Leaving millions in fear and uncertainty (often for years) is, for them, a "fair" price they are willing to pay to "appear" to be solving the nations problems and we are just the collateral damage of the war they "must" be seen to be fighting on befalf of all those Tax-paying middle class voters.

(Message edited by Peter_aka_Sociable On 06/08/2011 10:34 AM)
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RoseRodent
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 10:24 AM)

Reply to stalwart (06/08/2011 3:00 PM)
Reply to SunshineMeadows (06/08/2011 2:

Results

DWP estimate that about 23% of people reassessed will be found fit for work. Out of those, they estimate that:


Which actually means...of the total amount assessed....


11.5% will move to jobseekers

4.6% will move to another allowance

6.9% will leave benifits

So only 11.5 still claiming or 18.4 in total  could be reclassified as fit for work



Where does the 75% come from????





The other 75% is those who are NOT part of the 23%. *Out of* the 23%, a sub-percentage of *only those people* half of *them* are expected to move to JSA. Each is a percentage of another percentage, so the maths will not add up, especially after rounding has taken place several times over, but what they are saying is 75% of people will be x and 23% will be y and this is how we expect those who are in group y to be further subdivided but the total of the original cohort who are y will still be 23%.

It's all about different ways of seeing "Fit for work" as many people try to report "Fit for work-related activity" as "Fit for Work" which it is not and isn't even vaguely related to. The 70% and higher figures of who is "Fit for work" also includes the "Fit for limited activity which may one day result in a theoretical return to work, but equally may well not".

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SunshineMeadows
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RE:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 10:39 AM)

Thank you Peter,

I now realise that the figure of 75% relates to new claimants but a lot of the recent stories do not say this in their headlines.

I wonder what the figure for new claimants of IB was.

I just did a random through Google search results and found this

http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/07/department-for-work-and-pensions-finds-many-claiming-sickness-benefits-are-fit-to-work.html
(notice the strapline at the top- No Communication Challenge is too Great)

Tests by the Department for Work and Pensions find many claiming sickness benefits are fit to work

Wednesday, July 27, 2011

By Matthew Barrett
Follow Matthew on Twitter

Iain Duncan Smith's Department for Work and Pensions has released figures today showing claimants of Employment Support Allowance (ESA) - which is to replace Incapacity Benefit - are, in many cases, fit to work.

The new ESA benefit requires a test to see if claimants are able to undertake work. Figures from the Department showed that of those who took the test, 75% could work. More detailed figures show:

  • One in 14 applicants is unable to do any work in the long-term
  • 39% were “fit for work” and moved on to job-seekers’ allowance
  • 17% were awarded ESA but classified as able to work in the longer-term
  • 7% were deemed incapable of any work
  • However, 36% of claims were closed before the assessment stage and 1% are still in progress
CAMERONAITW David Cameron reacted to the figures, explaining that the current welfare system does not work:

"For too long in this country we have left people on welfare for year after year when those people, with help and with assistance, could work, and so we’re producing a much better system where we really put people through their paces and say that if you can work, you should work"

The Prime Minister then emphasised the virtue of working:

"The rest are able to work and we’re going to help them to get jobs. That will be good for them, good for their families and good for our economy."

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Peter_aka_Sociable
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 10:46 AM)

As a well known Irish comic was oft heard to say: "It's how I tell em!"
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stalwart
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RE:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 11:04 AM)

"The rest are able to work and we're going to help them get jobs.  That will be good for them, good for their families and good for the economy."


I looked at the google translator, but  couldn't find the language  "bullshit"  so I'll do my own.....


Anyone that can get out of bed (with or without the use of aids and adaptations) Must work,  no benefits will be paid to anyone with a pulse.   This will be good for the economy and good for business.    Unfortunately all the workhouses have been demolished or sold, so it would be too expensive to bring them back on line.   Have a nice life.smiley45smiley45smiley45


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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 11:16 AM)

 ""The rest are able to work and we’re going to help them to get jobs. That will be good for them, good for their families and good for our economy.""

What, they can do a 40 hour week? That's how many hours most jobs are now.

It's all well and good saying they can work - but how many employers are willing to take someone on who may need time off for medical appointments and can only work when their body says so?

More to the point, why aren't they helping people on job seekers allowance more? For anyone who doesn't know, you can only get help now if you've been on JSA for 9 months. I've had to beg my adviser on several occasions because I need help with getting back to work.
theicequeen
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 12:29 PM)

Somebody once said there are statistics, dammed statistics, and lies!!!!! this proves that they were right.
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JLRRAC
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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 2:34 PM)

"DWP estimate that about 23% of people reassessed will be found fit for work."

Excuse my poor maths but doesn't this mean that 77% of those currently claiming disability benefits are unfit to work?  Hardly the picture being painted by the DWP/Government.
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danslatete
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RE:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 2:53 PM)

I'd like to know how many of the people found fit to work have had thier DLA stopped. I must say it is worrying me.

There have been a few reports of this happening but if you are not due a review and your condition has not changed the way it affects your daily life, then how can they justify this? Just something playing on my mind..

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Re:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 3:00 PM)

 Some of the criteria for ESA and DLA are similar. So, I imagine that because the medical examiner for ESA has decided you can do this and you claim DLA because you can't, it looks somewhat odd.
auntieCtheM
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RE:Confusing ESA stat- only 23% found fit for work?
(Date Posted:06/08/2011 3:22 PM)

Hi danslate,
Since you can work and receive DLA I would have thought that there is nothing automatic about losing the DLA.  

All you need to do, if it comes up, is to prove that you are still disabled in some way.  You can work if you have lost a leg, but you are still disabled and have extra costs like a wheelchair or something.
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